Undercooled: A Materials Education Podcast

[MUSIC]

Well, hello and welcome to another

episode of Undercooled.

Today, we're here with Professor Willie

Rockward from Morgan State University.

I've known Willie for many, many years

when I started to go

down to Morehouse College

to recruit students from

my research experience for

undergraduates program in France, the

optics in the city of late.

And I got to sit in and watch Willie

teach physics to his students at an HBCU.

And it was amazing.

I've since maintained a relationship with

Willie for many years, and

we've even had a student from Morgan

State who went to our

program last summer.

But I've really seen what he's done to

the National Society of Black Physicists,

how he helped revive the whole

organization that was in

pretty severe financial shape.

And now they're in pretty

amazing financial shape and

probably partially because

of Willie and his vision.

And when he talks, it's great.

So Willie, why don't you tell us a little

bit about your background?

How did you get into physics?

How did you start teaching

and what are you doing now?

Wow, wow, well, Steve, thank you first

and foremost for

inviting me to participate in

this podcast.

And this is share, share in

my pathway and things I do.

Yes, we did meet a while back.

And I think you have

very fruitful engagement.

Well, a little bit about me.

I'm a Louisiana boy born

in the bayous of Louisiana,

South Louisiana below New Orleans.

Believe me, there's a

city below New Orleans.

But then also did my

undergrad and all that stuff.

Well, how I got into

physics was very strange.

Okay, I got into

physics through football.

I was a football player, high school

football star running back,

receiver, kickoff return, punt return,

all that kind of stuff.

And but my real, so my passion really was

football at the time.

But I wanted to play for Grambling, a

very famous coach, Eddie Robinson,

at Grambling State

University in Louisiana.

That's in the northern part of Louisiana.

And I just, anyway, I

tried on and made the team.

All they offered me was

a physics scholarship.

But I tried on and

made the football team.

And I made it and played for Coach Rob

for about maybe two,

three weeks in practice.

Cuz the linebacker hit me so hard, I was

like, okay, yeah, I

can't keep doing this.

[LAUGH] But nevertheless, and since then,

I've been in the physics hot and heavy.

But anyway, we were at Morehouse.

I was a professor at Morehouse about six

years ago, about 20 years.

And now I'm at Morgan State, chair of the

Department of Physics here, and

we're having a great time.

So that's a quick, very snippet of me.

But I'm engaged in all levels of

mentorship with students.

My expertise is in the

area of optics and lasers.

Did the research more in diffractive

optics, lithography,

nano lithography, things of that nature.

And been doing a little bit recent

research in some metamaterials and

things like that, so.

Fantastic.

So one of the things that I think our

materials community would love to hear

from you is what do we need

to know at our primarily white

institutions about

African American students?

And we get students from Africa, and

they're different than

students from America.

And so I know that

you've primarily focused

on African Americans.

So what do we need to know

about African American students?

Because where I wanna go with this is I

wanna learn how we can do the best

possible job to support them, make sure

they feel like they belong.

And make sure that we meet

them wherever they are and

bring them forward so they're successful.

So what should we need to know about

African American students?

Okay, that's a good

question, that's a solid question.

I mean, in a sense to me, it's both.

Yes, you need to know about African

American students and

some distinguishing factors, okay?

And history makes a big, history lays out

a lot too of your culture and

your situation and your

perspective, all right?

And what African Americans do, you gotta

understand they all don't come with

a standard background, right?

They don't come all prepared for physics

or material science.

They come as raw material, okay?

Meaning like, okay, in the raw, but if

you're able to process this some and

deal with this some,

you'll be able to refine it and

get it to where it needs to be in.

And that means, okay,

some have other issues,

non-academic issues that

affect their academics, okay?

And then there's some come

just solid, straightforward.

But a good thing you need to know is that

we are relational people, all right?

African Americans are

relational mean like,

I'm not gonna really get to know you or

feel belong unless I feel you out for

my good, for my

improvement, my betterment.

And that takes an opportunity to get to

know you more than just in the classroom,

okay?

But I begin to know you from the

classroom, your classroom dynamics,

from your classroom perspectives, from

your classroom assignments,

from how you would engage with me as I'm

watching you engage with other students

too, okay?

Are you just being, are you giving me a

special kind of way and

giving other students

another kind of way?

No, no, if you're gonna, if all of us are

your students, give us all the same way,

okay? If you're gonna be hard on me,

you'd be hard on everybody.

You're gonna be, give this

student some opportunities,

give all your students opportunities.

So just come with a consistent approach

and a consistent year.

And that begins to open, allows me as an

African American student to wanna open up

and get to know you more as a professor

and respect you in that regard.

So, yes, it's not as

difficult as it sounds.

It really is being consistent and being

genuine to all students,

and especially African

American students too.

And that way we will see that we're part

of your group of students, period.

That's great.

And so you've been at Morehouse and now

you're at Morgan State.

And you've been dealing with students who

come from, like you said,

a very wide range of backgrounds.

Some of these backgrounds are really

backgrounds that are pretty tough.

Students who come from very

underprivileged economically and also

dangerous childhoods with...

So how do you help the students who come

from the worst backgrounds?

How do you, do you engage the other

students to help you?

From what I saw, the whole ethos of the

institution is all around helping others.

I'll never forget the first

NSBE meeting I went to at AUC.

There's a woman from

Spelman who is the president.

The room was packed and

they started by saying,

"Well, we're gonna start this by standing

up and reciting our mission."

And I'm like thinking, "Oh my God, that's

ridiculous. Who cares

about mission statements?"

And then I heard it and I was so moved.

It was almost religious because their

mission statement was

all about reaching down

and helping their brothers and sisters

have the opportunities that they've been

blessed to have themselves.

It's like, that was powerful.

Now this doesn't happen.

I mean, it might happen at NSBE meetings

here, but it's not part of our ethos the

way it is at an HBCU.

So maybe at an HBCU, how you leverage

that to help the students with the most

disadvantaged backgrounds,

the students who are further

behind in your physics class.

Well, you hit some of the good points in

bringing them along.

Part of it is to bring someone along,

they need to belong, to

bring them along, right?

And to do so, you gotta see what areas

that they would fit in.

What areas they seem to

have some connection to.

And so one of the things I always do to

help my students with

different backgrounds,

the worst ones and even some with the

better ones, you can say,

I always pull them into my

office and have a one-on-one.

A one-on-one and I

listen to them carefully.

I ask my basic

question, what's your passion?

Where do you see yourself?

You 18, 19, maybe 20, add 10 years to

yourself and what do

you see yourself doing?

So I try to drive home,

find out what their passion is.

And then I say, okay, well then once they

start talking and some of

them may say, I don't know.

I say, okay, but what do you like?

Okay, so I keep the

question around them, okay?

And as they engage with me, I listen

intently and I make mental notes,

mental notes, what is unique with them.

And so therefore, as I'm

going into the classroom,

I try to make sure I'm pointing certain

opportunities and certain,

even some certain material that may

overlap their background.

So I don't necessarily call them out on

the spot, but I give them

opportunity to respond to me.

So when we are talking

one-on-one in my office,

I also share with them some of my

personal challenges.

I have to keep reminding them, like,

look, you're seeing

me at a refined state.

I wasn't always this way.

We go through a growth patterns and all

of us, I say, everyone, the professors,

all of us have had our

challenging point too.

I say, but every last one of us also has

someone who was like a champion for us,

someone who helped us along and they

didn't have, they didn't have,

it was, they didn't

have nothing behind it.

You know, they didn't have any hidden

agendas or anything.

They wanted to help you, they wanted to

help me and help us become the best

people we can become.

Okay.

And I say, and that's the same thing I'm

trying to do for you.

I want to give you my support.

I say, but I'm also, I'm also expecting

you to put forth your best effort.

I'm expecting you to let me know when you

need some help or you,

you feel like you can't quite make it or

you just don't know,

or you just want to sit

down and just want to chat.

Okay.

So I make sure that they're engaged and

they don't see me as this.

I'm the one, you know, some savior to

solve all their problems,

but I also help them to see that, hey, I

am a resource for you to be here,

to help you out.

And you got to take advantage of it, you

know, as best as we can.

And so when they start feeling that after

a couple of meetings,

they begin to start really, I mean, I saw

some, I saw seeing

them really, really grow.

That's awesome.

And when I saw you teach in the

classroom, you were

tough on those students,

really tough.

And it was uniform, all of them.

But when I walked out and talked to the

students, they all loved you

and they loved you because you love them.

And so I walked, what I got from that is

you had this pedagogy of tough love.

And I just think that was amazing.

And I wish I could do what you did.

And so any advice for how

to be tough on your students

and still make sure that they

love you, that you love them.

How do you communicate that you love

them, even though

you're being tough on them?

Oh, I don't know my secret sauce yet on

that one, but I give you some tough love.

Well, to me, it's like, you know, I try

to make sure they know.

Okay, this one thing I always tell them

too, is I tell them I have a motto.

I say my motto from all of

my classes is hard, but fair.

I say hard, but fair.

And I say really, I'm

not really that fair.

And they were like, what you mean?

I said, well, you really want me to be

fair to you because if I be fair, fair,

that means I only give you what you made

or what it is or what the facts say.

I say, but I also look at, you know, I

weigh in you as a person.

Okay.

I weigh in your effort.

I weigh in all those things, those

factors that, you know,

I say, and to be honest with you, a lot

of professors do that.

We look at our students, you

know, from where you've come,

we look at your trend and how you've

grown in this class.

So I say, but I say, but

what I will do for one of you,

I will do for every last one of you all.

But that also means I

will not do for one of you.

I won't do for nobody.

Okay.

I say, so you can count on me being that.

Okay.

And I say, and then I try to help them

also grow out of their,

out of their, the me, the

me myself and I mindset.

But I say, I said, okay.

I say, you got to remember this.

I say, you got, you got to learn to

follow the lead of your

professor or the lead of

whoever's in charge or responsible for

this class or whatever it may be.

It may be on your job.

Okay.

I say, you got to understand, especially

in the class, that we as professors,

first of all, this is

not our first rodeo.

This is not our first time teaching this

class in most cases.

I said, but the bottom line, even if it

is our first time teaching the class,

we know what we're

going to put on the exam.

We know what we know what

the class is going to look like

from the, for the whole length of the, of

the, of the semester.

I say, you don't.

I say, so what you gotta

do, you got to lean on mine.

Okay.

You on that.

Okay.

So you got to get in my

mindset as a professor.

I say, so when you start thinking about

it from that perspective,

you will be able to start listening to me

and picking up on me and picking up on

stuff that I'm really

emphasizing and things like that.

And some stuff that I'm

telling you, Hey, go and finish that.

You know, that's, that's like a hint

saying you're going to see that again.

And so, so, um, so I kind of

coached them along the way.

And when, when we outside of the

classroom, they see the same guy.

They don't see somebody who I, I look

down on them, um, or anything like that.

You know, I, I mean, I keep

them in the proper perspective.

They do address me by my

title, doc, you know, you know, Dr.

Rockward.

Well, most of them can't

call me by my last name.

You know, so they just call me Dr.

Rock.

Okay.

And I told them that's fine.

That's fine like that.

But, you know, and we, we have a mutual

respect, a professional mutual respect,

both in the classroom

and outside the classroom.

Now, yes, in the classroom, I got some

rules and regulations and like one of my

rules, especially at Morehouse and even

brought up here at Morgan in our

physical class, you

can't write in a pencil.

They know if I see a pencil hanging out

your book bag, I'm going

to kick you out my class.

And they're like, what?

I say, yes.

I said, because in the physics arena, we,

we've learned to write things down.

So we, we learn to be intentional in our

thoughts and we try to be careful.

And then so we, so when we write in pen,

if we make a mistake, we just draw a line

through it and it's all right to the left

or to the right, because

sometimes we think we were

right.

We were doing something wrong, but we

actually was doing it right.

But if you scratch it out and you use a

pencil, you're going to

erase and you won't have

nothing to compare it to.

I said, so in physics, we're

not afraid to make mistakes.

We learn from our mistakes.

I said, and that's what we want to keep

driving home, driving with you.

Don't be afraid to make mistakes.

Now some mistakes you shouldn't be making

because you saw them.

Other people make those mistakes.

Right.

I say, so some stuff you should not be

doing, but there's some,

there's some new mistakes

to be made because there's some new

problems to be solved.

And so, and so when they start seeing

that perspective and I

even share with them some

of the mistakes that I've

even made in my personal life.

Okay.

Along the way where I'm at now and

they're like, wow, Dr.

Rock, right?

I said, no, I'm not perfect.

I'm human like you.

I still make mistakes.

And I said, but I said, that's just some

stuff I've grown past.

And, and so they, they, they opens them

up and they get the

chance to see me as a human,

a human as I've grown and matured on my

pathway and that

they're more, they're more

susceptible and willing to jump on their

pathway, which may not be a common one.

So I try to, so I'm trying to motivate

them as I also, you know, push them.

And I think that, I think that's that

mixture of tough love.

So they, they, they're willing to,

they're willing to

receive the correction and the

toughness of behind me

because they know I love them.

Right.

You know what I'm saying?

They not care about them.

So, and you reveal your human side and

you don't do that unless

you really love somebody.

Yes.

Yes.

So that's, that's really awesome.

So, at our institution, you know, we're

involved in a new DEI effort.

I actually was on a listening panel

talking about their new DEI 2.0.

And I got a little upset at people

because it's written

like "administratium."

It's like, here's what we're

going to do for recruiting.

Here's what we're

going to do for retention.

And I'm like, wait a minute, hold on.

You know, first of all, and then the

pathway for each of these

things was talks and training.

And I'm like, why is the knee jerk

reaction for academia to solve every

problem with a lecture?

It's like, why are you even doing that?

Why don't you focus on what is the

problem and how are we going to solve it?

I said, how can you talk about recruiting

when we have a large

number of African-American

students who have told us that they don't

feel like they belong?

Don't we have to work on that first?

Because who's the best people to recruit?

It's students.

Yes, that's true.

Right now, we've been told that sometimes

some students will go to

NSBE, and NSBE students will

say, "Oh, don't come here.

This is not a good environment."

It used to be better. It used to be

really good. And we're struggling.

And so I stood up and said, you need to

solve this problem first.

You need to understand why they don't

feel like they belong,

and we need to correct that.

And you shouldn't give faculty

credit for going to DEI talks.

You should give faculty credit for doing

direct action things.

How many underrepresented minorities are

they including in their research lab?

How many recruiting

trips are they going on?

How many students are they mentoring who

are underrepresented?

This is true for all... It's not just

African-Americans. It's all of our

underrepresented minorities. It's also

our transfer students.

They're really at risk. They come in and

they don't know anybody.

And so I've been trying to focus them on

doing things that I think

are important, which is,

what can we do to make our

students feel more welcome?

And this is kind of a problem for us that

you don't really have, I don't think,

at an HBCU, because the whole institution

is focused on making

everybody feel welcome.

But then they come here and we blow it.

So what advice do you have

for us so we don't blow it?

How can we make our students feel welcome

across the whole institution?

Wow. Wow. That's... Okay. That's gonna

take up the rest of this podcast.

But I can give you a couple of nuggets.

And you kind of hit one major nugget is

that it has to be intuitionized.

The institution has to see that all of

its students... Okay.

Yes, yes, underrepresented minorities,

but everybody is important.

All of my students are important and my

faculty is important and my

staff is important, right?

Because if we don't have the

infrastructure and support structure, we

can't get our students through.

So all of us are important. All right.

And so one of the biggest things I've

always tried my best to do

and I share with them is okay.

To really help a student feel belong,

it's gonna take extra time.

It's gonna take extra exposure.

It's gonna take you...

You know, they're gonna take a whole

village to kind of do...

You can't... No one person can do it all,

but as a village, a

collective, we can get it done, right?

Because there's some areas like say you,

Steve, you're very good.

You're very encouraging. You're very

motivational in the sense you...

and not helping me to

understand anything.

So you're also making ways

and resources for me to help.

So providing resources, provide insight.

And like you say,

sometimes structuring opportunities

for them to get into study groups.

Because if you come

as a transfer student,

or you come in as a dual degree

engineering student who

spent two or three years

at another institution,

now you come into this major institution.

Or even as an undergrad

going to graduate school

at your institution in Michigan.

I'm going to a whole new culture.

I'm going to a whole new environment.

And it's good to have somebody there

who I can relate to and connect to.

And it always has to look like me.

But it'd be good to have something

that does look like me, but also to know

that everyone don't have

to look like you to want you

to be a part of the community.

Yeah, we're just starting some programs.

So in our literature

sciences and arts college,

they have some very

good study group systems

where people can sign up for a time.

And once you have 15

people, that one's closed.

Then they pay a student who

did well in the course, who's

now an upperclassman,

they pay that student

to mentor that study group.

And they do it on Zoom.

So you have no idea

who's in the study group

until you first meet.

But the benefit is you

actually get a student, someone

your age, who knows the material, who

can help drive the conversation.

And I think this is great.

So I've asked if we can

do that in engineering.

And I've actually

gotten a lot of support.

I think the dean's like this idea.

It's not that expensive.

And I actually found out that

some of the other departments

are already doing things like this.

And we're going to do it.

We're just going to use--

what's that tool called?

My wife did it for when my

kids were in high school.

Signup Genius.

With a free Signup Genius account,

you can have students

sign up for different times.

And it doesn't cost anything.

We just pay the student.

And I love paying undergrads $18 an hour

to teach other students.

Because it's like the

first time in their life

they ever got paid for what they just

paid all that money for.

And they're actually using what they just

learned and making money.

I think that's a wonderful thing.

And so I do that in my class.

And I'm not going to

convince the other faculty

to do what I do.

But I use team-based teaching.

In all of my classes.

And so I make the teams.

And I make the teams based on the

diversity in the classroom.

Making sure I don't strand a URM.

Make sure there's at

least two or two women.

But we have so much

diversity in our classes.

I teach a class where I have first year

through fourth year.

I teach a class where I have all these

different departments.

This term I'm

teaching an archaeology class

with an archaeology professor.

And so we have people who

are sociology majors, who

are business majors.

Last year I even had one

of the hockey team players

who left in the middle of the term.

Because he got drafted

by the New Jersey Devils.

But when you have all

those different voices,

not only will people

start to understand and value

diversity for what it can

bring to the success of a team,

it also creates built-in study groups.

Because the team has to stick together.

And I teach them.

And then I hire instructional aides,

which are undergrads, to

help mentor these teams.

And I quickly realized

they should rename it.

IA shouldn't mean instructional aid.

It should be inclusion ambassador.

And what they do is

they watch these teams.

And they're their age.

And I tell everyone

they're going to do this.

If you're an introvert

and you just sit there

and don't say anything,

you're not helping yourself.

No one's going to know that

you have something of value

to give to the rest of the team.

And it goes right back

to your football roots.

We had our coach, Beau Schembechler,

who painted famously on the

tunnel, the team, the team,

the team.

Nothing matters except

the success of the team.

And guess what?

That's where all of our

students end up in industry.

It's all about the team.

And so you have to help the

other members of your team

be the best they can so the

team can be the best they can.

And so they pull the

introverts aside and say, hey,

I know this is tough.

But later on, I'm

going to be calling on you.

And it's not because

I'm trying to be mean.

I just need you to let others know.

You have something valuable to say.

And we do the same with the extroverts.

We tell them, you have

to learn how to listen.

You can't-- I had a student once.

He got marked down on a project because

all of his teammates

hated him.

And he came up to me.

He goes, I did everything for that team.

It was my idea.

I did all the research.

I built the project.

I was the one who did everything.

And I said, I hear you.

I hear you.

And you didn't let

anyone else do anything.

And they were pretty upset about that.

And so that's why you got marked down

because you didn't let

others have a chance.

And so I'm sorry.

That's a tough lesson to learn this way.

But that's how we do it.

So anyway, there's lots of techniques.

And I wish more faculty were open to--

I mean, it comes down to what you said.

The institution has to change.

Yes.

How do I convince my

colleagues to do this?

So we get accredited by a group called

ABET for engineering.

And I have a good friend

who's way up high in ABET.

And they're now going through diversity

DEI criteria for ABET.

It's very difficult.

So they haven't quite done it.

But what he told me was really valuable.

He says, listen, it's not

about so much giving people

an unfair advantage or any of that.

It's about the fact

that our students are going

to get an industry.

And they're going to

work with diverse teams.

They have to learn in school

how to work with a diverse team

so they hit the ground

running when they go to industry.

I just thought that was

an interesting perspective.

Yeah.

That's a full perspective.

You actually look at it.

And diversity of the team

is becoming more than just

national now.

It's global.

Oh, yeah.

You know, the most successful teams

are being very effective

not just in their regional

or national area.

They're being effective globally in a

variety of countries

and things like that.

So you're right.

He has something.

We got it.

We have to train ourselves, which means

we have to retrain ourselves sometimes.

That's right.

But you just look at football again.

Why did we win the

national championship this year?

We won because we had an amazing defense

and we had an amazing offense.

And we had all these different players

that had all these different strengths,

who's incredibly-- you win football games

by having tremendous

diversity where you need it.

And then you make

sure you play as a team.

That's true.

That's true.

And you just got to

continue to stay at it

and look at the variety that everyone

brings to the table.

I just believe the

institution is going to make a big--

it has to come from the top.

I think there's going to be

a grassroots movement, too.

But they have to be

able to see that, OK, our--

at the top, they're

just in support of it,

as well as we're

going through grassroots.

They're making it institutionalized.

And I hope that's happening in Michigan.

I think our new president

is very focused on this.

He's an Asian-American.

And when he was living

and when he was growing up,

he felt lots of racism.

And it hurt him personally.

And he talks about it.

And so I know he's really committed.

But it's really hard to

change an institution.

It's still really hard.

And I wonder, maybe by

being more engaged with faculty

at HBCUs would help teach our faculty.

I know I learned so much

by going and visiting him

and the other faculty who are down there.

It was really important for

my growth as a human being

to see how powerful that

kind of an institution can be.

And that's one reason I

asked you to be on this podcast,

because hopefully we

can give that to others.

But how can more faculty from

primarily white universities

get involved with faculty there?

And I know there's been

a lot of abuse of white--

primarily white institutions trying

to get money by at the last minute

partnering on a research

grant and all of that.

And that's not helpful to anybody.

And hopefully our funding institutions

will figure that out.

But how can faculty and especially

materials programs--

because guess what

kind of graduate students

we love the most?

We love physics

graduate students or physics

undergrads who can come

in because all the concepts

in material science are either

physics or chemistry concepts.

So most of us come from different fields.

I was a math major.

I was not a material

science undergraduate.

And most of our faculty were

not material science majors.

We were all chemistry or physics.

And so I think we need

really good students.

How can they get engaged

with, say, Morgan State?

I would say that's

something Morgan State is doing.

We made it recently.

Well, the past couple of

years, our president, actually

is into institutional partnerships, where

we're partnering with Purdue University

across institutions.

Not just, say, in our physics departments

or in our engineering departments,

but literally across the institutions

where they're doing a lot

of dual degree programs,

two-way exchanges,

because many of the students

at a predominantly white institution

would love to spend a semester or two

or even do a degree program at an HBCU.

And so things of that nature

is making it much more real

and engaging for the

faculty, because the faculty

at both institutions

need to be in partnership.

We are the infrastructure for our

students that comes in.

The new student comes

into the institution.

They're going to meet

pretty much the same faculty

within good reason.

And so the faculty need

to be connected to HBCUs

and likewise to PWIs so

that we can form a good--

I call it a good pipe, a good pipe for a

very robust pipeline.

You want a pipeline of students.

That means in order to

get the students flowing,

you need to have a pipe.

And the pipe is the faculty.

And so we can continue to

work together like that.

We'll be able to give

our students a lot more

opportunities.

And they'll get a sense of belonging.

Say, like I said,

underrepresented minority

coming from HBCU, we get a

greater sense of belonging

by already being connected to the PWI

before they even get there.

OK.

And that's how their

productivity level really

goes off the roof.

I mean, you just see

them really, really blossom.

Now, NSF has some

very interesting programs

to help facilitate some of

this with our PREM program.

Yes.

How does a PWI get

involved with a minority serving

institution to start a PREM?

I presume it's first you

need good relationships

with the faculty.

Yes.

Yes, that's true.

I mean, that's what's going

on with us in Morgan right now.

We have a PREM grant in materials.

And so we actually connect with PWIs,

John Hopkins, Penn State,

things like that in different areas.

and go out and win a lot more grants.

- That's great.

Well, we actually--

- And they actually gained

their students a lot too.

- That's right.

So we just got a MRSEC that just started

at three weeks ago.

- Wow.

- And it's run by Rachel Goldman.

And one of Rachel's

students is Jared Mitchell.

Remember Jared?

- Jared Mitchell, yeah.

- Yeah.

- He was one of your students.

- Yes, yes.

- Who went to the

optics in the city of L.A.T.

and he's about to graduate.

What an amazing student.

And so I will be calling

you in a very short time

to ask about how we

might write a prem together.

- Okay, okay.

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to it.

I'm looking forward to it.

- But I think, you know,

that's a good, important message

to other materials

programs of how they can start

to develop a relationship with an HBCU.

But I think it has to be

predicated on mutual respect.

You know, we can't just write it and say,

"Hey, will you put your name on this?"

You know, we have to sit

down and do it collaboratively

to say, "What can we do

that'll be really unique

for both of our institutions?

And what's gonna match with the passions

of the people who are actually involved?"

- Yeah, that is so true.

And also, it'd be a two-way street.

As you bring proposals to me,

I bring proposals to you and

say, "Hey, can you help me,

you know, strengthen this proposal?

Can we work together with this

and see how we can put

together a strong proposal?"

That we may win too, so

it's a two-way street, yeah.

- So I had one last question,

but I think you kind of answered it.

So I was gonna ask, you know,

how should materials programs make sure

we're supporting

African-American students

in guaranteeing their success?

And what does success look like?

I think you answered that.

Success is what the

student wants success to be.

And we need to ask the student,

what do you view as success?

- Now, but you gotta also keep in mind

that sometimes they don't know.

- Yeah, of course.

- So, but it's also good when, you know,

but allowing them to

first engage, you know,

and come to the realization that they

don't quite know yet,

then you can start

feeding them some ideas.

Say, "Hey, have you tried this?

Have you considered this?"

You know, for this

student, it looked like this,

you know, and then, you

know, sometimes, you know,

you ask yourself, "Well,

where do I really wanna be?"

Okay, and you let them know

that you don't have to know right now.

- Okay. - Not always.

That's fine.

- Okay. - Many of us,

I mean, I didn't know I

wanted to be a physicist

until after, really until

after my junior senior year.

Okay, junior senior year undergraduate.

I know I wasn't gonna

be a football player

by my freshman year,

but I didn't really

get the physicist part

until I was about, you know,

in my fourth year as a senior.

I spent five years in my undergrad,

which I tell students, you

know, it's all right, okay?

It's all right.

It's good to have another

year if you can as an undergrad

because it helps strengthen, you know,

broaden your knowledge base, so, yeah.

I was gonna be a dentist

because my dad was a dentist

and I would just take over his practice.

- Wow.

- But then I went to the

exam, the pre-dental exam,

and I saw these people

throwing airplanes at each other,

little paper hair,

and it was just so lame.

I just, I'm like, "Wait a minute.

I can't go to school with these people."

I got up, walked out,

and started looking at

engineering programs.

- Wow, okay, okay.

- So you're right.

You never know.

And it's important to make

sure people keep options open

and explore and get experience.

So I'm our undergraduate advisor.

You know, I tell all

the students, you know,

your summers are, you

should be getting internships.

You're gonna make a lot of money,

but more importantly, you're gonna learn

what it's like in industry.

And you should try some big industries

and some small industries.

And even if you go for a PhD,

where do you think you're gonna work

when you finish your PhD?

You're gonna probably

work in an industry.

And so, you know, we have

all sorts of career fairs

and we have a weekly

lunch where we bring people in

from industry and graduate schools.

And I tell them, "You gotta go to these.

These are really important to go to

because this is giving you information

so when you graduate, and

you don't have to decide

till the very last minute,

but you might apply

to companies to go to.

You might apply to PhD programs.

You might do what you need

to get a one year master's.

And you don't have to decide

which of those you're gonna do

until one month before you graduate.

So keep your options open.

And then won't it be wonderful

if you have to make a hard decision?"

(laughing)

- Which echoes, which to

me, I always echo to them,

there are some problems you like to have.

- That's right.

Yeah, because it's a tough problem

to choose what your path is gonna be,

but that's why I think every student

needs to do research.

They might hate it.

They might think it's

terrible and that's okay.

They learned, you know?

But it might also

completely change their lives.

It changed mine when

I got to do research.

I think you told me a great story

when you went to Bell

Labs to do research.

- Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's how you

open up my eyes quite a bit.

And I always tell my students who,

plus doing research,

especially during the summer,

you get to see all the

stuff that you've learned

in the class, in class,

how it really applies.

I mean, this stuff that

we're teaching you all,

it really has some true, strong,

practical applications.

Okay? - Oh yeah.

- And sometimes they don't

get a chance to really see that.

- Right.

We're not just applying gratuitous

violence to our students.

It's actually useful.

- Well, also, I've

been told by some people

in our physics

department that our application

is progressing to host National Society

of Black Physicists in 2026.

Hoping that comes through,

because it'll be

fantastic to see you come up here

to Michigan and have that whole group.

Because what a great group that is.

I've really enjoyed going to those

meetings and it's great.

- Well, I'd like to tell you, man,

that has been confirmed now.

We will be helping the

University of Michigan in 2026.

- Oh, it has.

- That's awesome.

So I hope everybody

who's listening to this

comes to that meeting.

Because even if you think

you're doing material science,

this is where you're gonna

find amazing physics undergrads.

They have money to bring,

how many undergrads do you typically have?

- Around 350 to 400.

- Yeah, 350 to 400 students,

undergraduate physics

students come to this meeting

and you can buy a booth

and advertise your program.

And it's really, really rewarding.

So I hope, I mean, you don't have to wait

till we have it at Michigan.

You can do it.

Where's it gonna be next year?

- I would encourage

you to come this year.

Well, the next two, three years, we're gonna have to do it next year. Well, the next two, three years,

we're gonna be doing it.

A special one, 2024, 25 and 26,

we'll be doing it in conjunction

with the National Society

of Hispanic Physics too.

So both organizations, we

decided to come together,

work, collaborate on a

conference for three years,

three consecutive years.

And we're looking forward to it.

We're gonna be in Houston in 2024.

It looks like we're

gonna be in San Jose in 2025.

And we are definitely locked in

for the University of Michigan in 2026.

- Fantastic.

Anything else you'd like to mention

that you think is important

for our materials programs

to hear before we close out?

- I think we covered the gamut.

There's one thing I did wanna mention.

You and I had a chance to talk,

I think the pre-talk about some

sensitivity training.

To me, that would be a

great thing for, yes,

for say majority faculty

to get an understanding

of underrepresented

minorities and things like that.

But I believe really

it's good for everyone.

Because what I've been

trying to expose my students to

is that, hey, you gotta

understand the environment

you're going into, right?

It's a combination.

Everybody won't be able to

adjust the whole world to you.

So that's it.

You gotta also learn the culture

of a predominantly white institution.

They focus a lot more on research and

learning new things.

And sometimes we take out

the relational side of things,

but we realize that we have to pull it in

within good reason.

So I do think it's great to have that

sensitivity training

for both.

But primarily, if I'm at a

predominantly white institution,

I do need to have some

sensitive training about HBCU

or about African-Americans.

So I can at least be equipped to be,

I would say on the

positive side of things

instead of the negative side.

- Fantastic.

Well, thank you so much.

And so thank all of you who tuned in

and are listening or watching on YouTube.

I understand that

transcripts are coming to podcasts now.

Apple has announced that

we can put transcripts in

so people can read

this, they can listen to it.

And I think it's great.

So thank you so much, Willie,

and thank all of you for listening

and we'll see you next time.

- Thank you, Steve.

(upbeat music)